What Do You Think?!?!

frackman · #1 11-13-2009, 07:06 PM

What are your thoughts on this?-

It has always been assumed that senior members have priority over juniors when boarding apparatus. But read on- There is a fire call at your station and your engine 1 has one seat left open. Two people are competing for this seat. A 16-year old junior member, who has completed Mods 1 and 2, attends in-house training regularly, and runs about 70 calls in a year, and a 20 year old senior member, who has no certified training, does not regularly attend in-house training, and runs about 40 to 45 calls a year. Common assumption pertains that the apparatus would pull out with the senior member in the remaining seat. But is this right? Why shouldn't the junior get the seat ? After all, he has more training, right? Now, it has to be realized that juniors can't be of much help in the attack of the fire, but of what help can an untrained senior member be? Is there any difference between an untrained senior member and a junior member?

McLovin55 · #2 11-13-2009, 07:54 PM

how many people need to ask this come on really

frackman · #3 11-13-2009, 07:57 PM

Its a free country.... anyone can ask a question gee

Bill Hall · #4 11-13-2009, 08:25 PM

Frackman,

For me the answer is very simple. I would take the senior member. Here is why:

If I take the junior member with all her training and there is a person waiting in a second floor window, I cannot send the junior in to get that person. It is against the law. Legally, I could send the senior member in. I realize they are both underqualified for the job but with the one, it is illegal. Now that is extreme but there are other things I can have a senior member legally do with minimal training that I could not allow the junior to do.

Nothing against you or any junior. I started as a junior and went through the same things you are going through and had the same thoughts. Now my perspective is different and I see things differently.

frackman · #5 11-13-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Hall

Frackman,

For me the answer is very simple. I would take the senior member. Here is why:

If I take the junior member with all her training and there is a person waiting in a second floor window, I cannot send the junior in to get that person. It is against the law. Legally, I could send the senior member in. I realize they are both underqualified for the job but with the one, it is illegal. Now that is extreme but there are other things I can have a senior member legally do with minimal training that I could not allow the junior to do.

Nothing against you or any junior. I started as a junior and went through the same things you are going through and had the same thoughts. Now my perspective is different and I see things differently.

I fully understand what you are saying, and a I guess I may have worded this wrong. You see down here we got a couple members who call themselves senior members when in reality they have less training than a junior. They also really have no interest in taking training or doing fundraisers, they just show up for calls. And then you have a junior that wants to take his training and does fundraisers in addition to showing up for calls. I know someday I will probably look at this different too, right now it just makes me upset.

77EMT21 · #6 11-13-2009, 09:11 PM

I agree with what Bill said. While yes I would want a junior to remain interested and keep up the good work and running. Legally there is only so much a junior can do. While the senior member would be limited with why I would allow him/ her to do, legally as Bill stated I could put them to use in situations where I could not put a junior. I would sit down and talk to your chief and express concerns to him. There is nothing wrong with treating the situation as an adult and talking it out and figuring out the best interests of everybody, including the victims of whatever incident the apparatus is responding to.
With all that being said, if you are 16 years old (keep in mind I dont know the regulations for your company for this) but maybe get your first responder and or EMT and help staff the QRS. They will be responding as well on most incidents except for mutual aid stuff. Take all the training while you can and be that much better when you are a senior member. Talk with the senior members that have been around for a while, find out a way that you can still be involved and not necessarily feel left behind. It is tough to relate to how you feel since I only run EMS but I can understand the situation and offer my advice (atleast I think I can).
I applaud you on your training but like I say talk to the Chief and other command staff and figure out what will suit everybody and still keep you active and interested in the service.

res1762cue · #7 11-13-2009, 08:26 PM

I'm going to assume someone's just mad.......

STEVE BROWN · #8 11-13-2009, 09:08 PM

Clint,
I started as a junior and went to all the trainings I could. I had more foraml training at age 17 than some of the guys that had been there 10 years. However, If I ran into this problem I would follow the chain of command. The quickest way to get into some crap is to go to others about a problem that needs to go to your officers. I would go to your offiicers asap. This is not the place to vent about oir solve internal department struggles. It wont look good for you or your department.

Troy Neville · #9 11-13-2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frackman

Is there any difference between an untrained senior member and a junior member?

An untrained senior member can get in way over their head and endanger themselves and others. But so can an overly ambitious junior trying to do more than he/she should.

What's the call? Is there an Engine 2 or Squad that could also respond? One seat left - so there are currently 5 senior ff's?

AFA - as a senior ff I would let the junior go to get some experience. Other apparatus due? I'll take the next one. Already a junior on board or only piece due to a working incident? Sorry, maybe next time. That's the officer's or senior ff's perogative (if no SOG otherwise). I was never a junior, but appreciate their desire to learn and gain experience.

However, a junior even with Fire Officer IV is still 'junior' to a senior ff with no Firefighter I.

The fact that you recognize the importance of training means you are off to a good start.

Patience grasshopper. Soon the OIC will have a choice between a trained senior member and the older untrained one. Easy choice for me.

tvfd · #10 11-14-2009, 07:16 AM

Frackman, I would have to go with the senior member. The reason being like Bill said is the senior member can do things a junior is not able to do. The senior member might not have the training like you but I could have the less qualified senior buddy up with a senior member that has the training. I know this is very frustrating to you. I have been there myself as a junior member. Keep on training, your day will come soon enough to become a senior member.